Cindy Gallop: ‘Asia is treated as dumping ground for sexual predators’
As Mumbrella Asia continues its examination of sexual harassment across the region’s media and marketing scene, prominent ad land figure Cindy Gallop speaks to Eleanor Dickinson about why it’s time to start naming and shaming the agencies and perpetrators who have “destroyed the dreams and ambitions” of thousands of women
For the last month, readers of Mumbrella Asia have been given a glimpse into some of the harassment experienced by women working in Asia’s media and marketing scene.
Following ad land diversity campaigner Cindy Gallop’s rallying cry to expose the scale of the issue within agencies, this site has published four women’s personal but anonymous stories of sexual harassment. The geography in those stories ranged from Singapore to India, so it’s possible that if there is a negative industry culture it extends beyond any one specific place in Asia.
In the following question and answer session, Gallop talks about how deep she feels the problem runs, why it has never been properly addressed and what needs to happen next in order for the industry as a whole to move forwards.
Cindy Gallop
Mumbrella Asia has for some time now been trying to uncover how deep harassment in Asia’s media and marketing goes. One of the recurring themes we are finding is a reluctance of women to go public with their experiences because they fear being fired and blacklisted by other companies.
“From my experience, growing up in Asia and being half-Chinese, it’s not a question of culture, but about the power play – but this is more entrenched in Asian culture. The men doing the harassing are the gatekeepers to jobs, pay rises, promotions, awards and ambitions. This isn’t just the top of the chain; there are men at every level blocking women and that’s the inhibiting force in Asia.
“Even if it’s just your account supervisor that’s harassing you, he can ensure that you never progress and are managed out of the company. But from my observation of travelling around Asia, I am seeing that women are fed up with their place in society and not willing to put up with it anymore – especially in Japan, where the culture keeps the women down.
“People are afraid of being the whistleblower and what that will do for their reputation, their employability and non-disclosure orders. I want to actively applaud whistleblowers as the true heroes and heroines of our industry – like Susan Fowler [the sexual harassment whistleblower] of Uber.
‘Heroine’ – Susan Fowler, formerly of Uber
“I am also calling on companies, brands and agency leaders to publicly state they will interview and hire sexual harassment whistleblowers. If agencies have values, integrity and want to do the right thing, they should be falling over-themselves to hire these people doing the right thing. Michael Roth and Yannick Bollore have so far shared this with their employees.
“Finally, you can break your NDAs, as Zelda Perkins did with the Weinstein Company. If you break an NDA about an appalling story, there is no way that company can come after you legally without looking absolutely dreadful. And also, while you signed an NDA your husband didn’t, your family didn’t and your friends didn’t.”
Another theme that has appeared frequently is that men accused of harassment are often not even fired, but redeployed to another market. Does that proximity further discourage victims from coming forward?
“Well because of the NDAs in the industry, if a harasser is terminated from an agency, nobody will no why. He can spin it any way he wants. If he is a well-know creative, he will be snapped up again. And this culture of silence means men will go on to harass and rape again and again.
“The sexual harassment I’m hearing about spreads from appalling sexual comments to molestation and all the way to violent sexual assault and rape. And the men who have raped again and again have never been brought to justice. This culture of silence enables that to keep happening.
“Also the old acronym FILTH – fail in London, try Hong Kong – still operates. These men get shipped to Asia, which is still seen as a dumping ground. This makes people even more reluctant to speak out because they see their harasser being celebrated and given accolades as they are moved on. I do also see it as appalling that Asia is regarded as a dumping ground for this trash.”
There is to be a lot of talk in Asia about white men being the main perpetrators of this harassment, especially against junior Asian females. Do you think that assessment is accurate or too simplistic?
“This is a power play, and a Caucasian sexual harasser in Asia is a kid in a candy store. I am also appalled by stories of the HR departments who are a disgrace to their professions – zero help, zero support. Sometimes it is women who are so culturally brainwashed that they are completely unsupportive to other women. Meanwhile the men are completely unsupportive of the trauma it causes to women in a professional context.
“I knew a young, pretty Asian female who relocated from the US and was appallingly sexually harassed by her boss, and went to HR – who did nothing. I encouraged her to go back, but she was having so much trouble coming to terms with what had happened to her – so traumatised – she was struggling to speak about it. In this part of the world, you are not as encouraged to self-express as you are in other parts of the world, and you are just forced to deal with the trauma.”
Is part of the problem that women sometimes don’t realise the gravity of what happened to them – when alcohol is involved at functions, it’s sometimes referred to as a ‘grey area’ by those protecting the status quo?
“There is no ‘grey area’. But then when people ask me what sexism I encountered going up through the ranks in advertising and I say: ‘I honestly cannot tell you that because a fish does not know what water is’. I can look back at London in the late 1980 and say ‘fuck that was appalling’, but we are culturally brainwashed into believing a certain behaviour is OK.
“Historically, I have been saying that diversity is the single biggest issue our industry faces. It’s not. Sexual harassment is for several reasons – not all of which are obvious. Harassment actively prevents gender equality, diversity and inclusion. It prevents women from ever getting into power and leadership. When you make sexual comments to us in a professional setting, you instantly dehumanise us, strip us of all professional credibility, reduce us to a sexual object, ensure our male colleagues never look at us in the same way again and you destroy our careers.”
“That’s one way harassment managed us out of industries. Another is when you get women fired for rejecting your advances. A depressing and recurring motif I get in my emails from women is ‘I left the industry’. Our industry has haemorrhaged vast amounts of talented women.
“This is affecting business because our very reason for existing is to sell products. Our primary consumer target audience is women, who are the primary purchasers of everything. We are charged with providing advertising and communication that is empathetic and respectful of women, but sexual harassment is actively preventing us from doing our best work for clients. No wonder women around the world say advertising is not relevant to them.
“Finally, without women in positions of leadership and power, no wonder our industry has spectacularly failed to reinvent itself in the last 20 years. It’s on a downward trajectory and no wonder, because there is no fresh thinking, no innovation and no female talent in leadership and positions of power.”
When you were in leadership, did you ever have to discipline or fire anyone for sexual harassment?
“During my time at BBH in the 1980s and 1990s, I was very lucky nothing happened to me. And many of the women, who were sexually harassed at other agencies, said how refreshing it was to have arrived at BBH in Singapore when I was running it. There was none of that going on. But there is now.
“But when I was running BBH New York, there was one man who interviewed very well. I hired him to run a big piece of business and he arrived at the agency and got off on the wrong foot on day one. He wasn’t sexually harassing, but was being highly inappropriate in various ways and I fired him four weeks later.”
You have been a driving force in the drive to end sexual harassment and promote inclusion in agencies for some time. Are any of the holding companies going to pay you to consult for them in this area?
“No. Earlier this year, Adweek very kindly gave me one of their Disrupter of the Year awards. Katie Richards from Adweek asked me how I felt I had disrupted our industry and I said: ‘I haven’t. I have spectacularly failed because nothing is changing. And nothing of what I do is showing up in my bank account.’ I say that not out of self-interest, although I would like it to show up in my account. I say it because it is emblematic of our industry on a bigger scale. The industry does not put its money where its mouth is.
“There’s that famous Bill Bernbach quote: ‘A principle isn’t a principle until it costs you money. Our industry claims to spout the values of equality, diversity and inclusion and will not pay to implement them. I have lots of ideas on how to solve this but nobody is paying me to do so. But if you want to be the agency or holding company of the future, you would pay to do so.”
Cindy at the 3% Conference – “The industry does not put its money where its mouth is.”
Some men I’ve spoken to are now saying they’re too scared to say anything to women for fear of being accused of harassment. Are they justified in that fear?
“What a load of absolute fucking bollocks. A man in the industry recently said to me that men are scared of appearing on ‘Cindy’s List’ and that anyone could find themselves on it. I bit his head off because the sheer scale of human misery I’m looking at in my inbox from all around the world, and not a false accusation in them – quite the opposite. How dare these men pronounce on it; they have no idea what women have been going through for decades.
“This is why we need to break these stories: these men, these names and companies and client brands attached, so the men understand the problem is them.”
Are you pleased with how your campaign has gone so far since the Harvey Weinstein scandal broke?
“No. This is 30 years too late. In the meantime, all around the world, millions of women have had their dreams and ambitions destroyed. There is nothing good about what we’re looking at right now. Until we run those stories all around the world, when agencies and names are named, that will open the floodgates.”
Cindy Gallop is asking women and men in Asia who’ve experienced and observed sexual harassment to please email cindy@ifwerantheworld.com with names, agencies, holding companies and brands. If you also wish to share your story with Mumbrella Asia, contact the editor Eleanor Dickinson at eleanor@mumbrella.asia
Eleanor Dickinson is the editor of Mumbrella Asia. Eleanor joined the Asia platform from Dubai, where she acted as senior reporter for Campaign Middle East.
The insinuation that all white men in advertising in Asia are “FILTH” and sexual predators is offensive. The vast majority of us have chosen to live/work in the region rather than being “dumped”. That could be a unique job opportunity, a love of different culture, or following a partner/family. Or any combination of the above.
I applaud the initiative to protect and treat all people equally in a respectful and non-discriminatory environment, but to throw a blanket over any individual group within the industry is a gross generalisation which does no one any favours.
ReplyHey White Guy in Advertising, I don’t think the insinuation is ever that all white guys are doing this, but when women speak with me, it is about white guys harassing them in some form. Maybe they speak to me because I’m white, maybe they speak to me because they think I’m open or trustworthy, but it’s not a comment to tarnish all white men, it is just the truth that a minority are acting out – kid in a candy store indeed. I totally appreciate that this doesn’t sit well with guys who are not doing it, but then, we’re all culpable if we let it continue. It’s impossible not to piss someone off in this discussion, but the only thing that matters is stamping this behaviour out, right? We’ve all got a job to do there. Thank you Cindy for taking on this fight. With all of the appalling stories turning up in your inbox, I’m sure there is a lot more abuse you have to endure as well xxxxx
ReplyGood interview but once again ruined somewhat by Cindy’s crude generalisation – its all the fault of white, male expats.
This, to use Cindy’s own language, is a load of bollocks, and perpetuating this excuses many other offenders (and demonizes a lot of decent people). I see where she is coming from – white privilege was real in Asia a long time before it became a buzzword of the left. And no doubt, many have abused that in this region. But it tells only a part of the story and explicitly ignores the whole picture.
I have had one direct involvement in a sexual harassment case. A colleague (Asian-American) harassed by a digital agency lead (Asian-American) and the case dismissed by my boss (Asian female).
Cindy’s racial stereotypes simply don’t fit, and it lessens (cheapens?) her argument
ReplyLet me tell a little story.
Many years ago, at the tail end of the 1980s, there was a charity auction in London, organised by the advertising industry.
One of the prizes was dinner with a very senior agency suit from one of the hottest and most-awarded agencies in town.
The prize was won by an account manager in her early 20s, new to the industry but very ambitious and obviously excited by the chance of a formal business dinner with such a big name in the industry. Years later, it was her who told me this story.
When the two met a few days later, the senior agency guy said to the young lady: “You know we’re going to f*ck tonight don’t you?”
Where the story went next, I’m not sure. I remember asking but honestly can’t remember the answer. It was a good few years ago now, and there was plenty of alcohol flowing. I don’t think she was especially offended at the time it happened. Certainly, when she told me the tale, it was more a war story than a complaint.
But what are the thoughts on this? Was the senior person wrong? Did he abuse his position and his power over this very junior female? Was this harassment? Should the junior – now herself a senior brand marketer – say something. Should we name and shame?
Maybe. Maybe not. The arguments are complex.
But what if we flip the story over? What if the senior person in this story was female? A female who today is still involved in the industry. Do the same standards apply? Was she guilty of abusing her position, age and experience for intended sexual gain? Or as a woman in such a male-dominated industry, can she be excused?
I don’t have the answer. Only the story. A story that may be true. But just as easily not. It all happened such a long time ago after all.
ReplyIt would be nice if Cindy could produce one single example of a sexual predator who was moved by his agency to Asia from London, New York or wherever.
This would justify her broad claim that the region is a “dumping ground for this trash”
If not, one might suspect that she is talking “absolute fucking bollocks”
Reply@Michael, haven’t you heard? Asia’s the hotbeds for hotbeds
ReplyIsn’t this what allegedly happened with Gustavo Martinez of JWT?
ReplyReally Ambrish? Which agency in Asia was he sent to?
Google can be your friend here. Just ask.
ReplyThank you @michael. You have enlightened me pointing me towards Google. It’s changed my life. I will never the be same.
ReplySarcasm noted
It’s not difficult though. Check before you post.
ReplyIf you substituted “African American” or “Singaporean Chinese” or pick your choice of ethnicity, Cindy would be issuing apologies for racial profiling. That’s the thing about equality, it cuts both ways and you don’t get to pick and choose which ethnicities, genders, or other determinations are “good” or “bad”. There is a definition for that- stereotyping.
The issue here is about people in power that are using that power against others in inappropriate ways. It’s not the 100% domain of white guys- across 20 years I have seen it with men of all races and have even seen it with women in power (no one is immune). However, it is the exclusive domain of people that focus only on themselves and their needs instead of the people they manage.
ReplyA big one.
ReplyThe behavior of both sexes merit an analysis of issues from all angles.
ReplyPredatory behavior by men regardless of colour doesn’t damn all men of the same pigment.
These pigs deserved to be shamed, drawn & quartered.
Likewise, not all women are victims. It’s a two way street and we all know an office slut or two who have flirted or slept their way to a promotion and pay rise.
There are bullies,opportunists and real victims across the spectrum.
Let’s face it, our industry doesn’t exactly attract the better segments of the human species.
Life isn’t black & white.
Sensational sound bites are more plentiful than workable solutions.
And generalizing in articles isn’t gonna get us closer to solving this age old problem.
Certainly not by attention seeking soapbox grandstanders.
Where was their concern before it became the cause du jor of late?
This piece is a trending lightning rod and iressistable to opinionated mouthpieces and eager click bait publishers.
Some men are pigs…..some women are pigs.
Spell out the dos and don’ts in employment contracts..and the consequences.
And stop trying to act outraged, Cindy and Andrea.
ReplySpecially you, Cindy.
Stop trying to act outraged….. I don’t understand that comment? I’m not outraged, i’m Fucking furious when any person gets fucked over by another. The employment terms are clear, and yet consistently inconvenient when claims are raised. Just the other day, I heard of a lady leaving Indonesia and going home because she was being harassed. He’s still left to harass, because she was too traumatized to do anything other than get out of there. That fucks me off! It’s time for this shit to stop. Is that “acting” outraged?
ReplyI am furious too Andrea. Well maybe not furious, but disappointed at least that Cindy has gone down this path of bitter generalisations and has not put forward a single actionable solution to the problem, aside from a very questionable ‘name and shame’ policy.
It’s a pity because it was a good opportunity for Cindy and for Mumbrella. Who else is doing anything in the media? Campaign played lip service for a while. Got an event out of it, which was great (for Campaign revenue) and even had a dedicated microsite, but that soon filled with tumbleweed. And that’s about it.
I’m not expecting the trades to turn into the Washington Post, and I get that for some titles their agency relationships still determine the news angle, but still substance over sensationalism is not too much to ask.
I get it. Cindy likes to shock and provoke. Mumbrella actively encourages this. All good and strategically sound for both parties. But what is the outcome?
Clicks? Comments? Yes.
Action? Change? I doubt it.
ReplyI totally agree, action is the only thing that matters. I put out a call for people to say call me. There’s a group meeting up in a couple of weeks to start the conversation- how can we do something meaningful? But we need to know if it would work – i.e would younger people facing abuse actually call us if they were in that position? If not, what else can we do to help solve the challenge? Wanna join us?
ReplyDoes cindy know what a SPG is? What about ladies who throw themselves at senior execs to get ahead?
ReplyHow about this? Let anyone who has been subjected to anything untoward name the perpetrator on a public platform
– Make it mandatory to register with a genuine email account (2 step verification included).
– if more than one person has been targeted by a perpetrator, let a registered user upvote his/her name and let the worst of them rise to the very top
– No victim names /profiles need to be shared publicly. You have the registration info and can contact people if there is a law suit
– If there are several accusers, let them sue jointly to split legal costs (given most of the abusers are likely senior and much better paid).
Let’s clean this shit up!
ReplyTwo women swinging wildly without any strategy…just anger.
I get the impression these two are just trying to further their own personal brands instead of genuinely helping. I think this cause would be better served if headed up by someone who actually did suffer sexual abuse and stood up for it. Far better optics.
ReplyI have no interest in increasing my personal brand, none! Here’s my thoughts and suggested starting place for a solution – https://andreatedwards.com/2017/11/16/116053 – and i’m actively recruiting support. I don’t “need” to do this. I want to do something to help. A solution is what we need after all xxxx
ReplyAre all white men in Asia predators? Of course not. And I agree that sweeping generalisations serve no one in this very complex and nuanced issue. But the statistics prove that sexual harassment is largely a male perpetrated crime, whether against a male or female victim.
I would ask everyone who has commented on this article with a variation of #notallmen to look back at their comments and ask themselves why their indignation is directed more at their feelings of personal insult, generated by an article written by someone they have never met, than at the rampant issues of harassment in this industry.
Not one of the negative commenters has said “harassment is wrong. it must stop” You have all said variations of “not me” “women do it too” “so what are the women (Cindy and Andrea) going to do about it?” “This is just click bait” Or my personal favourite, the false equivalency of the “office slut” who sleeps around…
Also ask yourself why you feel the burden is upon women to fix this issue? Senior female leadership in this industry is in the minority, the culprits are nearly always male (thought obviously all female perpetrators should be held to account) and it should be men in our industry who support and enable the women who are fighting this cause, not belittling them or putting their own bruised egos first.
Perhaps think about your commentary and your entitlement and ask yourself if possibly it is this kind of toxic culture that inhibits women (and all victims of harassment) from coming forward.
We must do better.
ReplyWe must do better indeed! Thanks xxxxx
ReplyThere was a lively discussion in our office today about this article. If I was to sum it up, the men were a bit dumbfounded (do all women view us as sexual predators?) and the women were upset (this piece does not speak to my views and has set us back).
It was interesting that the women were more angry. When they talked about what they wanted, it was men (who I think we will all agree are further up the ladder) extending a hand and helping women move up through mentorship, training, opportunities to expand their responsibilities, etc. Instead, they feel pieces like this give men the impression that when they extend their hand, women will pull them right off the ladder.
And one gentleman, who is probably the biggest proponent of women in the workplace I have seen, was quite dejected. When asked if he was mad, he said “no, just really disappointed that I am viewed the problem when I am trying to be part of the solution. I guess I am the enemy now”. It was like he lost all of his energy for the subject.
It’s a shared burden to fix this issue. But when you accuse one entire group of being “bad” and “the problem”, it’s harder to actually fix it. The focus should be on how to fix it (ideas, steps, etc.) than pointing the finger at a relatively large number of people. I know many have commented that this was not the point of the article, but it really comes across that way and things like this set the #metoo movement back. Remember, a good chuck of all of those white guys are married- if they are like my wife, they don’t like their husbands branded as a sexual predator and get quite angry about this as well (and she is in the industry).
For a group so focused on marketing and communication, wow- this was a poor message to get across.
ReplyAs I said in my opening paragraph, I do agree broad sweeping generalisations are not helpful. I would be interested in what specifically in Cindy’s actual responses has caused the range of responses from your co-workers that you mentioned above? Given you have said this is a badly communicated message, I would be interested to see the specific examples you can point to?
She certainly doesn’t say “all men” but she does, rightly, point out that the problem is largely male. I don’t think anyone disagrees with that?
And while I do appreciate this is a deeply uncomfortable time for men, who feel like they are being unfairly accused, I would point out two things:
1. Most of the men of my acquaintance are well aware that they are not the men being discussed in these kind of articles, so they tend to not take it personally but instead understand that it is a larger conversation about patriarchal systems of power.
2. If male allyship to female issues is conditional on tone policing the way women choose to discuss an issue that almost exclusively affects them, then I would suggest they are not real allies. As I pointed out, most of the comments on this article have been focused on defending men (and attacking the woman who is featured in the article) than on any real acknowledgment or ownership of the issue.
ReplyI think it comes directly from the part of the article where she used a derisive acronym to color an entire socio-ethnic group. That’s a lazy communications device. Poorly thought-through points of view result only in the reactions that we are seeing here: the main issue gets buried under the reaction to the bit that was – at best – in bad taste.
ReplyI can understand your concerns yet looking at how you present your ‘discussions’ seem to stem from some form of malice you harbour. forming your own generalisations and by getting others to do the work for you by naming and shaming is to say the least constructive to get your message across.
ReplyThe toxic rantings of Cindy 1 have turned this issue into yet another soapbox. Now Cindy 2 has joined in. Where will it end? Is a Time woman of the year runoff in sight?
ReplyHave your say